Are you too humble?

Thinking of the many contributions, made to this Blog I have come to the conclusion that we are a very humble group. We are quite careful, when expressing an opinion not to be too self congratulating. We all admit, directly or indirectly, that we may lack aspects of Christian quality, that we are prone to sinfulness, and that we fall short in many ways. It is almost as if we need to assert our humility before we are able to point out the failure of others.

Now, is this a good thing?

I ask the question because of the psychology of self image. Quite simply human beings live up to, or down to, the image they have of themselves. Let’s suppose I have an image of myself as a generous person. In accepting such an image I find myself living it out. Faced by a practical decision I am inclined to say, at least instinctively: because I am a generous person I will do the generous thing in this decision. That is ‘living up’ to my image. By contrast, supposing I see myself as shy and tongue-tied in company. Then my picture of myself makes me anxious, and I very quickly confirm my image by hesitations and the occasional idiotic remark which others charitably ignore. That’s ‘living down’.

When I was in the commercial world I had much to do with salespeople. Their measurement, and indeed their income, were directly related to concrete success. But the difference in performance did not appear to be the outcome of good education or the gift of the gab; but it was related to their self image. Thus a person who saw himself as someone who would make ten sales a month would organise their activities on that basis, with a confidence that they would succeed. The ‘two sales a month’ salesperson would settle for that since it was their expectation. And, as the months went by, their respective self images would be regularly confirmed, and harder to change.

But does this apply to the Christian virtues? If I see myself as a sinful person does that enable me to repent and improve? Or do I just have a low expectation of myself and remain content with that? Would all our examinations of conscience be better for thinking about what we get right and building on that – rather than focussing remorselessly on our faults and seeing ourselves as unsatisfactory people?

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About Quentin

Science Editor, Catholic Herald. Portrait © Jacqueline Alma
This entry was posted in Moral judgment, Quentin queries. Bookmark the permalink.

38 Responses to Are you too humble?

  1. Horace says:

    I find it very difficult to find, or formulate, any “image of myself”.
    I don’t think that I am a ’sinful person’ but neither do I think I am particularly ‘saintly’.
    Perhaps my chief characteristic is ’not doing very much – neither good nor bad’.
    For example; I drink wine daily but never until after 8pm (except on special occasions) and confine myself to 2 (or at most 3) glasses.

  2. Nektarios says:

    The question is on this topic by Quentin “Are we too humble?”
    An interesting question – how is one to answer it?

    One definition of humility is: To see ourselves as God sees us.
    Our answer to that question goes someway to truly answering if we are too humble?

    • St.Joseph says:

      Nektarious One definition of humility is
      You say to see ourselves as God sees.us
      Are we too humble?. This last 7 days I can .not have felt more humble. The health care I have been given in hospital and still am makes me realize more ‘how am I to judge.
      Thanks to all the Doctor’s and Nurses their I would not be writing this today.

      Then the down fall when I heard a patient tell another patient that she was given a end of life tablet when the time came
      Is it any wonder we sometimes get confused..Are we living in two different worlds? When we read John Nolan’s post. our religious life’s seems of another world..
      However that is what we are told in the Bible ‘living in the world, but not of it.

  3. Nektarios says:

    St. Joseph
    One issue about humility or the lack of it, is having to go to hospital with something seriously wrong with us. Our humility seems to relate to what we think of ourselves and our dignity.
    Someone once said, ” there should be a notice above the entrances to a hospital – Please leave your dignity at the door!”
    You raise something else when you said,’ Is it any wonder we sometimes get confused..Are we living in two different worlds? When we read John Nolan’s post. our religious life’s seems of another world.’

    Many live compartmentalised lives of which the religious life is just another compartment in their lives.
    It was not always so, In the Celtic Church for example, The whole of life, all the world around them, the mountains, rivers and valleys spoke to them of God. God for them was a living reality, not just a philosophical concept.
    Getting all the needed to live from the land, the sea, and the rivers, they were aware of the God that is and were reverent towards Him in every aspect of their lives. Great Saints and the building of the Church occurred at that time with many miracles, monasteries, great seats of learning, the evangelization of Britain occurred during this period too.

    The way they related to one another was humble too. They loved one another, helped one another,
    cared for on another, worshiped God together and prayed together. Being humble they kept the bond of unity not only among themselves locally, but with people who came from other parts. Celtic times were a time of unity.

    If a Celtic person was to meet one from today, they would think them mad, needing help, and they would be right. Individualism for example, would be utterly alien to them.
    The views of the humanists, liberalists and secularists would have been seen as not only alien, but destructive to everything they knew, believed.
    There is little of a true humility among such today, and modern man is apart from perhaps technologically, is not united, does not really know God at all, even religious ones.
    To answer Quentin’s question, ‘are we too humble?’, my answer is, generally speaking, no.

    None of us are greater than Jesus our Lord, and it is written: Finding Himself as a man, He humbled Himself….. Philippians 2: 5-11. Can we but read this passage, please do, and let us follow His example and those of our Christian forebears. Perhaps we can find the balance in our lives and spiritual lives that humility brings.
    Of a truth, we are going nowhere without humility spiritually.

    • galerimo says:

      Nektarios your reply to St Joseph just popped up as I was mulling over my own thoughts. And I love what you write about the “holistic” Celtic vision of reality and how strange they would find us to be in our techno age. Good point.

      Some humanists, liberalists and secularists would argue against you when they talk about the “dominance” (Genesis 1:26) of God’s creatures over creation as being the basis for a lot of the destruction of our natural environment and diversity of species.

      There are many good organisations the even the ancient Celts could be proud of when it comes to caring for each other, all creatures great and small and the natural environment.

      In my “humble” opinion!

      • Nektarios says:

        galerimo

        Thank you for your kind words.

        The Celtic peoples were very aware of their environment, and saw God in it, not just something to ravage for profit.
        I hold a mirror up to the humanists, liberalists and secularists and ask, in their argument if they live and dwell here and receive the food and water and all the other benefits, or are they mere spectators. So glued to their mobiles they don’t see anything or anyone around them. Then they complain about relationships and fragmentation of society. Being mere spectators, insular and isolated they offer no solutions, taking all their information from the internet and really experiencing nothing.

        I do not know what kind of God the liberals believe in – obviously not one who is dangerous enough for them, they think they can challenge God, blame God and just about everything else for the plight of the modern man.
        The secularists with not an ounce of humility, especially in the corridors of power and big business are building a society built on sand.

        Yes, there are good and bad organisations, some on the environment, and only because previous actions is putting the planet in danger as some see it. Other Organizations exist for the preservation and conservation of animals and plant and other wild life. They do a good job most of them. I am sure the Celtic peoples of old would show such, that it is not so much organisations as such that is needed, but the awareness of our interconnectivity to everything making us think, making us aware of each other. We could go on and on with this -I am off to bed.

  4. galerimo says:

    Walking humbly with God (Micah 6:8) puts the virtue into good perspective for me.

    If I told you how close I am to a very well known public figure how would that change your attitude, or understanding of me? And then if I tell you that I am daily in direct intimate contact with God as friend that knowledge would have a direct impact on me and how I relate to you.

    Using this as a basis for humility is more fruitful for me rather than the starting point of my perceptions of my own constant need of redemption.

    I don’t think our tradition of original sin and redemption has done much for us in terms of positive self image by contrast with Original Blessing. A lot of this sort of thinking can still be overwhelming for people in terms of self esteem.

    Finding a good basis for humility whether in self image or ongoing divine companionship is the heart of the issue here.

    And thanks for the prompt Quentin.

  5. Martha says:

    Most canonised saints seem to rate their worthiness in inverse proportion to their increasing knowledge and love of God. The more they experience His goodness and greatness the more unworthy they feel and realise they are in comparison. I think one aspect of humility is knowing this, but having confidence that God can use the weakest of His creatures to achieve good, to be channels of His grace.

  6. Geordie says:

    The opposite of true humility is the sin of pride. It is Lucifer’s sin and our first parents sin. According to saints, spiritual guides and theologians, it is the hardest sin to eradicate. Thus true humility is the hardest virtue to obtain.
    Pride comes in the form of vanity, arrogance and self-satisfaction. We can be self-opinionated and status-seeking. We can be very proud of our good works. “I’m very proud of my humility”. It is the sin that drags us down.
    Yet I cannot recall confessing to a ‘mortal’ sin of pride. I was never taught what type of pride was mortal and what was venial, so I have always assumed by sins of pride were venial. These days we talk about serious sin and not so serious sin. However it adds up to the same thing.
    True humility is not a grovelling self-hatred. As has been said above, the saints seemed to know their relationship with God and thank Him for their virtues. St Paul, in particular, appears proud of his holiness. In reality, he was accepting what God had done for him and he was grateful.
    Can anyone help me in my confusion?

  7. Nektarios says:

    Geordie

    Where to start, Geordie, you have most things right here. Yet you feel a certain amount of confusion, you say.
    First get the right handle on what Pride actually is. Is is outright rebellion against God. It is setting oneself up as a god – while in a sense for the Christian that is true as children of God, it is a foolish and sinful thing to do.
    As to to whether pride is venial or mortal, such a discussion does not really enlighten on and purely theological and philosophical.
    What one has to come to see is, just how spiritually deadly thing pride is.

    Humility is not the hardest virtue to obtain, but in fact one of the easiest, that is when one sees what pride true is in all its ugliness. It is not humility that is hard and difficult, but pride to get rid of – like sin it has infected every part.

    You are right, true humility is not a grovelling with self-hatred, a non-christian certainly will not,
    but for a true spiritually awakened Christian who does indulge in pride, they do not know God at all.
    A spiritual awakened Christian, is one who does know God – but that knowing is but barely a fraction of what God knows about us. That awakened Christian sees not only pride, but all his other sins too. Some are almost driven to despair seeing this, but then they hear what God has done about our pride and our many other sins in Christ and know that they are forgiven. They are awakened to what God has done for us in Christ, redeeming us, giving us a new birth and life in Christ and they learn of Him and follow Him. All sin including deadly pride is hated seeing what it is,
    and humility, in the sense of understanding how God see us and what He has done for us is our way of understanding. The awakened Christian is always at peace with God in a state of humility
    before Him, and the blessings unsought, more understanding is given to all such who will walk humbly with God.

    Will the awakened Christian ever fall in to pride again, Yes, all too often, but they will not be happy there, they suffer on account of pride and will confess it and leave it.

  8. Vincent says:

    I think that Christians should be both humble and proud. After all, Jesus called himself meek and humble of heart, but then spoke with authority because all he had was from his father. We are, or should be, very aware of our sins — but also aware, as Paul was:” I live, now not I, Christ lives in me.”

  9. ignatius says:

    CS lewis said something quite good on this topic somewhere in the midst of the Narnia chronicles he has Aslan say to Edmund:
    ” You are a son of Adam, and that is enough to cause the most humble beggar to lift his face in pride and the most powerful king to lower his head in shame…”
    Something like that anyway. Something wonderful in that. As to humility, well, the less said the better. Also, I guess the Celts weren’t that much different from us in many ways on account of having human hearts, the English equivalent would probably be having an allotment. 🙂

    • ignatius says:

      Aha..found it!
      ““You come of the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve,” said Aslan. “And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth. Be content.”

      CS Lewis Prince Caspian

      Marvellous this isn’t it!

  10. Iona says:

    It must have been much easier for the Celts in the first few centuries AD to be aware of God in their everyday lives (easier for them than for us, I mean), because they were so much more directly dependent on the seasons, the daylight/darkness, what they could grow and catch for food, clothing etc., what they could find for fuel. Nowadays we are most of the time at several removes from that, and correspondingly less aware of our dependence on God.

    C.S Lewis said some wonderful things. For example: “No-one is ever told anyone’s story except his own” (when one of the children shows some curiosity about how – if at all – someone else is going to suffer for the evil they have done).

  11. Nektarios says:

    Iona

    The Celtic Christians I don’t believe had it easier than modern man. Yes they had to work for it, but they did it together.
    They were very much tied to the land and the sea and rivers and woodlands – but they saw God in it, and the earth was a living thing.
    Many of us have lived in houses in streets with sharp corners, traffic and noise, theirs was wide open spaces which helped them to understand God in the inner spaces within us. As you say, ‘we are correspondingly less aware.’

    But we are not that far removed from our Celtic forebears. We can recapture something of it for sure. For example, next time you are out for a walk somewhere, when you pass a stone dyke, or stones jutting up from the earth, stop for a moment and let that ancient stone in its silence convey its calm to you.
    Or see a wild flower silently blooming at the road edge, it has its own beauty, let it open up the beauty in you.
    You pass a tree and hear the wind rustling through its leaves, standing tall with its roots deeply
    coming up from the ground. Let it convey to you the life it has is of the earth. Humanly speaking, so are we of the dust of the earth and to that we must return.

    The Celtic Christianity did not have duality. Everything spoke of God, everything had its roots of the earth.
    Modern man is so divided he lives in a a fictitious and destructive world. Instead of living in a healthy relationship to one another, so precious is their fictitious individuality they prefer to pass one another in the street without even seeing them or speaking to them with their heads buried in their mobiles, reading mostly inane text messages.

    One of the many problems of modern man, who is more to be pitied, is a lack of imagination-so I will stop with this Iona.

    Can you imagine what it was like when the first time the wind was unleashed, blowing across the
    hot billowing seas? Coming to dark cliffs and rising and blowing over the top of them, and on and on it went around the earth.
    Let that wind blowing on your face tell you I was here at the beginning, I have always been here, and now I meet you.
    God sent the wind blowing and it has inexhaustibly blown around the earth and now around you
    and on it goes.
    Everything is inter-related here on earth, it is non-dualistic all one and one God who has provided this place for us all to dwell in and know Him through it and the people you meet and His sSon whom he sent.

  12. John Thomas says:

    Quentin, I think that this that you have raised, here, is both important and interesting. It questions previously-held Christian assumptions – which I always like; I’ll think about it for some time. Recently I saw a message on a mug (based on Descartes, I assume): “I think I am a good bloke …therefore I am a good bloke … I think …” If you consider you are a good bloke, you are, as you say, likely to try to live up to it. Presumably, though, the Christian who said “I am a wretched sinner!” was still, all the time, trying to sin not.

  13. ignatius says:

    “The Celtic Christianity did not have duality. Everything spoke of God, everything had its roots of the earth.
    Modern man is so divided he lives in a a fictitious and destructive world. Instead of living in a healthy relationship to one another, so precious is their fictitious individuality they prefer to pass one another in the street without even seeing them or speaking to them with their heads buried in their mobiles, reading mostly inane text messages…”

    Hmm, a bit of negative projection going on here me thinks…where are these fictitious individuals you speak of? How often do you stop for a chat with them as you pass? What do you know of the person you pass in the street, Nektarios, other than your projected opinion of them I mean?

    • Nektarios says:

      Ignatius

      Over many years, I guess I have spoken with, discussed with many hundreds. Equally I have pastored about the same. I have listened to them, laughed and cried with them. Nothing more telling when they are about to leave this life and asking what they have made of it.
      It was St. Teresa of Culcutta who said, ” There are many problems in the west, but the worst is loneliness.” Sums up in a sentence what I posed, which is an observation one sees everyday.

  14. ignatius says:

    Nektarios,

    Mother Teresa was right. Your words however were not.

    Why do you think people flock, in their millions, to join societies, clubs, organisations, sports clubs, huge pop or sports events events ? Why do you think the University of the third age has been so successful? Why do you think, when out on the hills, I meet huge crocodiles of people ambling along together in rambling groups? Why do people gather in churches for soup lunches and Friday clubs? Not, I assure you, because they so prize a ‘fictitious individuality’ so much that they refuse to acknowledge one another’s presence.
    Nor do most people over 50, more than half the population, in other words, bother much with text messages at all.I pastor people too, I’m also an osteopath by my trade so they pass through my hands, literally, by the dozens each week and have done now for many years. I find mainly brave people, often doing their best in the difficult circumstances offered to them by modern living; and when I walk about the streets and smile at passers by, I find my smile almost invariaby readily returned.

    • ignatius says:

      oops, stopped too soon… So I think in many ways you are right about people being wrapped up in themselves but wrong in the way you seem to imply this is some form of conscious choice they consistently make. Perhaps I have read you wrong.

  15. Nektarios says:

    Ignatius

    Yes, Ignatius, you have implied more than I did.
    If people do not know God, they only have themselves and those that like them are.
    I was stating something obvious, but one has to see what I said about fictitious individuality in the light of the overall context of my posting to Iona.

  16. ignatius says:

    So, to get back to the issue:

    “But does this apply to the Christian virtues? If I see myself as a sinful person does that enable me to repent and improve? Or do I just have a low expectation of myself and remain content with that? Would all our examinations of conscience be better for thinking about what we get right and building on that – rather than focusing remorselessly on our faults and seeing ourselves as unsatisfactory people?…”

    The psychological image we have of ourselves is, in itself, a fallen one. As the apostle Paul says we see through a glass as it were darkly, and this is true of all things. The issue is not so much about what our self image is as of having awareness of that image and slowly learning to recognise that the image is not, by any stretch of the imagination, the whole picture. So if we find ourselves feeling instinctively better than everyone else then certainly we are in trouble with our sous. If we find ourselves genuinely trapped in some mire of self loathing … then we are also in trouble with our souls.

    The practice of examination of conscience is helpful in all this as it may, over time, bring clarity to a degree with regard to who we are. Personally I think the examination of conscience, over time, is best carried out under some degree of supervision which can take the overall of confession to a good confessor and/or spiritual direction. Reading through the mystics and whatever more contemporary literature is available also helps. We will not eradicte our various anomalies, nor should we focus over much upon them, but we should regularly ask for the holy spirit to fill us and then set out on our road of pilgrimage as cheerfully as we may and singing praises along the way.

  17. Brendan says:

    The mission for humanity ( the initiated/baptised Christian ) is to acknowledge and therefore after live in…. ” the Kingdom of God “. Because God ” exalts the lowly and humbles the mighty [proud]” ; this is the distinctive attribute /feature of those living the ‘ life-of-Christ ‘ ( The Kingdom ). This humbleness/humility is not then , as the world would comprehend it : for it is beyond its understanding and is the sole province/gift of God ( The Father ) sanctioned in the Christ through The Spirit.
    Saint Matthew Ch.5 puts it definitively ( and succinctly more than Saint Luke )…..” How blessed are the poor in Spirit : for the kingdom of Heaven is theirs.” ( NJB ).
    Simply put ; I have perceived that when in this blessed/grace-filled state of freely pursued humble submission to Gods will , that my ” quality of Christian living ” ….and clarity of action to this end is most acute/ paramount in this ‘ happy ‘ state. It is then that God becomes all-in-all for me.
    Through humbling ourselves in accepting our place before God we come to more and more accept Divine Providence. The Saints are an example to us all ; even through sometimes ‘ the dark night of the soul ‘ can interfere with its positive direction , but never its positive end ….as recent testimony from Mother Teresa ( Saint Teresa ) has testified. Indeed

    • Brendan says:

      Cf. Romans 8:39 ” Nothing…. will be able to come between us and the love of God, known to u in Christ Jesus our Lord , ” (NJB).

  18. Nektarios says:

    Ignatius & Brendan

    It is good to think these matters through, Lay out our thoughts on this an other matters in a logical and rational way.
    Now fast-forward, and your on your death bed about to leave this life, what will you think then, will all our ordering we impose or have imposed upon us, be as important then?
    Consider, we have lived our lives and now the moment of our departure is minutes away – what will we think then, what will we say to others?
    Has humility so permeated every fibre of our being that what we say in those last words to pass on to others will reach their minds and hearts?

    Will we then be so full of regrets that we have not been humble enough, not received other virtues with humility – for as a truth, without humility we are going nowhere spiritually without humility?
    Are we ready for off then, to meet our Lord who knows all?
    Arriving there, then we are known even as we are known.

    • ignatius says:

      Nektarios,
      “Now fast-forward, and your on your death bed about to leave this life, what will you think then, will all our ordering we impose or have imposed upon us, be as important then?
      Consider, we have lived our lives and now the moment of our departure is minutes away – what will we think then, what will we say to others?
      Has humility so permeated every fibre of our being that what we say in those last words to pass on to others will reach their minds and hearts?..”

      Trouble is, all this is pure fantasy.
      We know nothing of our death beds, Nektarios. we know nothing of how we will be tomorrow. We know also nothing of how our own hearts truly are and we are unaware as to the level of our own humility; only a fool would attempt to plumb their own depths. You will be aware of course that the Apostle Paul gave up judging himself completely because of this. In terms of the lived life this paragraph of yours is completely senseless. The examination of conscience, on the other hand, and the looking to others who have gone before for insight is eminently practical and provides a proven and sound day by day guide. What , precisely, do you think you imparted with this paragraph of yours?

      • Nektarios says:

        Ignatius

        There is so much here you would like me to answer in a neat packaged way – unfortunately life is not like that, or indeed our own death.
        Secondly, I am not asking one to plumb the depths or indeed judging of oneself.

        You go on to say:, “In terms of the lived life this paragraph of yours is completely senseless. The examination of conscience, on the other hand, and the looking to others who have gone before for insight is eminently practical and provides a proven and sound day by day guide.”

        Well, let’s look at this that you posted. “In terms of the lived life this paragraph of yours is completely senseless.”
        Let me ask you, when was the last time you had a conversation with someone, where your heart felt safe enough and loved enough, where there was giving an receiving, such conversation that sang in you mind for days and weeks afterwards, permeating your mind and sinking down into your heart and depths of your soul? Some never have conversations like that, and their lives mirror the poverty of real living they are experiencing.

        You go on to say, “The examination of conscience, on the other hand, and the looking to others who have gone before for insight is eminently practical and provides a proven and sound day by day guide.”

        I can agree with what you say here with a certain amount of reservation.
        There is the freedom God has given us, that even He does not abuse, like so many religious abuse the God given freedom and has done down through the centuries to the present day.

        The Saints for the most part were humble, rightly so, they all saw themselves as failures.
        Please note this, Apostolic doctrine and teaching does not, I repeat, does not, impose upon the God-given freedom given us. Does not abuse this God given freedom. If it shows us if anything, that freedom, but man does abuse it. We have also a freedom in Christ, for whom the Son sets free, is free indeed. Free to explore your inner life hidden from the censure and judgement of others. Free to explore the life we have in all those wide, wild open spaces.

        One cannot live ones life vicariously on the life of a Saint. Learn from. take what one can from, yes, but our life is ours to be lived. Many have had their freedoms abused and trampled on as children, many suffer from that the rest of their days.
        Many are locked up in the prisons others have created for them, and they are never free.
        Can you call that a life truly lived?

        Lastly, One’s inner life is unseen by anyone. We have never really seen our own face. Yes, we have seen reflections of it in the mirror, but that can often be unkind in what it reflects.

        I am reminded about a monk who when he got up went to the mirror and asked, ‘who are you.’ Getting no reply, he asked again, ‘who are you?’ He asked a third time, looking at his reflection in the mirror, “who are you?’ Still no reply.

        So he winked at his reflection in the mirror and said, ” whoever you are, don’t let anyone fool you today.”

  19. St.Joseph says:

    Nektarios
    I understand what you say.

  20. St.Joseph says:

    Ignatius I don’t think so perhaps you haven’t died enough yet!

  21. ignatius says:

    Nektarios,

    There, you see now, you have tried a bit harder and come up with some sense! I like the one about the Monk.

    Oh St Joseph!

    I think its more that I am interested in frank and direct communication on this blog. You know that catechesis is about the gaining of a sacred mind as well as the absorbing of a sacred mystery.

    As to whether I have or haven’t ‘ died enough ‘ well, who can say? When is ‘enough’ St Joseph? At any given moment in my life I can only render to Christ that which, through his kindness, I can; and so can you. Reminds me of the farmer who kept pulling up the wheat to make it grow faster. 🙂

    • St.Joseph says:

      Ignatius.
      Thank you for your reply. I would give you a smiley face only I don’t know how to do it.
      I am home from hospital now thank you for allyour prayers.
      I somehow think that The Lord, thinks I have not ‘lived long enough yet’
      Perhaps more suffering to be done, like Quentin’s beautiful Poem!.

    • Nektarios says:

      for yougnatius

      Apart from your rather condescending beginning, thank you for your reply.

      • Nektarios says:

        Ignatius
        I don’t quite know what happened, just placed your name at the top as usual, came out as ‘for yougnatius?’

  22. Iona says:

    I don’t know that the saints saw themselves as “failures” (Nektarios, above). Rather, failure/success become irrelevant in the light of one’s relationship to God.

  23. G.D. says:

    ” failure/success become irrelevant in the light of one’s relationship to God. ” Yes!
    Humility is from dust to dust (Humus – earth) .
    But … I’m proud of my humility.
    And would be rid of both.

  24. hadashiblacksky says:

    It’s good as far as Christians being good people goes, but it’s very bad when defending against an argument like “what good does the Catholic Church do?” when everyone thinks we are evil.

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