The evil of abortion

This week I want to consider an unsavoury subject: there has been much public discussion about the legalisation of abortion in Northern Ireland. It has frequently been extolled as an extension of human rights. And the converse is that those who disapprove are the enemies of human rights. And I am confused.

For some time, in my writing elsewhere, I have given up the technical terms of embryo or foetus because in lay discussion such terms carry their own overtones. I stick with the simple words by describing the entity in question as an “individual human being”. That is a definition no one can deny: “Individual” because it describes the continuation of identity from conception to death. “Human” because that is its species. “Being” because it exists and is alive. It is strange to me that we can increase the rights of one set of individual human beings by removing the rights of another set. But it wouldn’t be the first time – look, for instance, how the Nazis ratified their treatment of the Jews.

Nor, indeed, can we safely discuss the topic. I run a fortnightly meeting with a group of philosophers. And I have learnt that I must prohibit abortion as a topic because we never agree, and people become upset. However, I leave no doubts about my own view.

On this site you can respond – in any form you wish to express. If so, you might care to visit https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19856314. It is a brief notation by BBC News of recent law on abortion.

 

About Quentin

Science Editor, Catholic Herald. Portrait © Jacqueline Alma
This entry was posted in Moral judgment and tagged . Bookmark the permalink.

66 Responses to The evil of abortion

  1. Alasdair says:

    Your not the only one who’s confused Quentin.

  2. Alasdair says:

    According to the campaign website of the (US) National Women’s Law Center:
    “Abortion – and the people who have them – have been called a lot of things. But what is abortion actually? An act of love. An act of compassion. An act of healing. An act of selflessness,” the website states.
    God preserve us! What kind of twisted, evil thinking is this?

    • David Smith says:

      Alasdair quotes:

      // But what is abortion actually? An act of love. An act of compassion. An act of healing. An act of selflessness //

      I suppose ideational flexibility is a survival mechanism, but in the absence of mental maturity, it’s likely, as it is in this case, to bite the believer who is incapable of or strongly disinclined towards thinking outside the box of the immediate, selfish, and utilitarian.

      The modern Western mass mind seems to have decided that humans are divided into two principal classes, a class of the deserving and a class of the undeserving. For the former, a wish is a social right. I want it, therefore I have a right to receive it. For the latter, all wishes are subordinate to the wishes of the former.

      In the fairly recent past – prior to, say, 1980 – the development of such a mass conviction would have been all but impossible. Since the birth of the public internet, it seems, in retrospect, to have been inevitable. Douglas Murray touches on this curious phenomenon in “The Madness of Crowds”. Social media, he writes, cause balmy ideas to be ignited by one or just a few people and almost immediately spread like wildfire. Half-baked ideas become official dogma practically overnight.

      Of course, mass delusions are nothing new, but the communications revolution has made them common. It’s like a disease to which the human mind has yet to develop immunity.

    • David Smith says:

      I wondered whether that quote might have been taken out of context. Nope, and there’s more of the same where it came from:

      https://nwlc.org/blog/what-abortion-actually-is-about/

      Wouldn’t have surprised Orwell. Black is white.

    • David Smith says:

      It occurred to me to check to see whether this might have been taken out of context. Nope, and there’s more where it came from:

      // https://nwlc.org/blog/what-abortion-actually-is-about/ \\

      Black is white. Dancing on the grave.

      • David Smith says:

        Apologies for the duplication. WordPress seems to be very slow to post lately, so when it didn’t show up within a few seconds, I tried again. Patience is a virtue.

  3. milliganp says:

    I have children and grandchildren and see every ‘unborn’ child as a loss to someone of all the thrills of watching a child grow up. There are no memories of the first time the child says mum(my) or dad(dy), no first day at school, no first drawing, no first nativity play or school concert and the thousands of other events that get posted on Facebook or Instagram.
    Britain has lost 4 million of these lives in the last 20 years. To make up for some of these millions we’ve had to import young people from other European countries; if nothing else it is demographic madness. We have a crises of care for the elderly but in 40 years our current 30 year-olds will find there is nobody to care for them. I think the unborn will come back to haunt our world in a biblical-scale catastrophe.

  4. David Smith says:

    milliganp writes:

    // in 40 years our current 30 year-olds will find there is nobody to care for them //

    There’ll be no persons, but there will be machines. Until the machines have become self-sufficient, they will be manned by the children of the imported immigrants, whose job will consist in simply following orders. Euthanasia, I imagine, will become normal and common. After all, humans are just organic machines, and machines that have outlived their usefulness must be disposed of. Humanely, of course. However that may be defined.

  5. David Smith says:

    Quentin writes:

    // Nor, indeed, can we safely discuss the topic. //

    That, of course, is the worst of it. Not only are dogmatic positions created and enforced by the chattering classes, and not only are there suddenly severe penalties in force everywhere for contravening them, but there are also very serious consequences for anyone caught speaking out against them. It’s almost as though the British government were to declare that speakers in public parks will be punished if they say anything the chattering classes find offensive.

    Come to think of it, such laws may in fact already exist. But if even if they don’t and even if they never do, the court of public opinion, which the media control, can already wreak severe damage for infractions of laws that they and the other chatterers alone have created.

    I suppose what it comes down to is that tradition no longer holds sway. Today’s newborns learn early in life to reject all limitations on their desires. Cultural continuity is a thing of the past.

    Sadly, this is happening in the Roman Catholic Church, as well. The organization that was created to stand against the mass mind is rapidly becoming part of it.

  6. Hock says:

    The more common you make the crime. The more acceptable it becomes and it is only a short journey to move from acceptable to compulsory.
    Were Quentin to make his comparison with the treatment of the Jews in Nazi Germany with abortion in a wider public forum he would be accused of a terrible slur and castigated from a wide ranging body of persons only too ready to line up against him.
    Are comparisons valid though?
    The Nazis of the German population were able to convince a significant majority ( it would seem,) of a civilised country that the perceived evil of the Jews was such that the death camps, mass ’round ups’ and removal of an entire race of people who lived peacefully and productively in their country was justified even though deep down they knew that what they were doing was evil, but were able to successfully pass it off as something desirable for the good of the State.
    The worse the crime, the more acceptable it became.
    We have reached that level of understanding with abortion. The more widespread we make it, the more easier it is to commit by removing , bit by bit, all safeguards and restrictions then the more easy it to pass off something evil as being good.
    We now have the perverse situation that one of the main reasons for the legalising of abortion was to prevent ‘back street ‘ abortions devoid of all medical interventions. What is about to be allowed in Northern Ireland is, in effect, back street (home) abortions and this is set to be a testing ground for the rest of the UK to follow and implement.
    It is only a matter if time before all abortion will be legalised and for any reason, and at any time.
    from there we will inevitably go to killing after birth for reasons of ‘wrong sex’, ‘unwanted’ and disability.
    The worst is yet to come. The more common the crime. The more acceptable it becomes. All restraint is jettisoned and killing of children becomes a human right.

  7. Nektarios says:

    We know what abortion is, but we are less clear what evil is. Evil has a source which we are not really in touch with, though we can feel the effects of what we call evil. So when it comes to abortion let’s see if we can clarify why abortion is evil.

    The Divine order of God of creating a man and a woman has a special purpose for mankind to multiply, yes, but there are steps that need to be arrived at to make it what God intended.

    People have to grow up and mature, then comes the seeking of a relationship, of marriage and sex.
    When this takes place and the woman becomes pregnant, the woman is in a vulnerable state due to billions of hormonal activity going on in her body, especially during the early stages of pregnancy.

    It is at this stage the man is protective of the woman, but that is not the deep reason, it is the one who carries his seed. The woman feels protected and supported by her husband at such a time and provides for her. This eases her mind till the full term and the baby will be born. Then it takes them both working together in the upbringing of the child the fruit of his loins and her egg.

    Now we know this is not how the world works today, let alone understand it. This is where evil comes in. Satan wants to destroy mankind and all that God has made and that, unfortunately, is also babies even before they are born, so destroying the man’s seed and the fruit of his loins.

    This is a great evil. Moloch was a deity who demanded child sacrifice. God Looking on this could not believe man would do such a thing. (By the way, they have recently erected a statue of Moloch near to the Colosseum in Rome with the Popes express permission).

    The approach of the Enemy of our souls is to create chaos in relationships, confusion in relationships often making a real lasting relationship almost impossible.
    If the woman gets pregnant, and the man is not around, then she feels unsafe and the Enemy has little trouble getting her in her vulnerable state with medical help and State sanction to have an abortion. But the source of this evil is Satan.

  8. Alasdair says:

    Quentin said “Nor, indeed, can we safely discuss the topic” This is a masterly understatement.
    During an informal discussion over tea and biscuits in the workplace I said that I “wouldn’t judge individual cases but personally I’m uncomfortable with the abortion situation”. I deliberately phrased this in the mildest manner I could muster. One colleague immediately and noisily stood up and left. Shortly afterwords, as we all filed out towards our desks I heard someone say (not directed at me, but deliberately said in my earshot) “The church should butt out of people’s lives” – clearly a reference to their understanding that I have “something to do with some church or other”.

  9. Nektarios says:

    The issue of the evil of abortion as far as Northern Ireland is concerned is mainly a political decision.
    I have covered in my previous posting the principal main cause for an abortion anywhere, let alone in NI.

    When we speak of human rights, let me say this, God-given human rights cannot be taken away from anyone. Political human rights is a weak response to a problem to which they have no answer and as it is politically given, it can be taken away politically.
    Human rights take on a liberal agenda and does not mean human rights at all, but a licence to do what they like, sexually and on many other aspects of life today. It seems there is a lot of confusion everywhere on this matter generally. That is what our evil Enemy does, he sows confusion.

  10. ignatius says:

    Well…thats all pretty stridently clear folks…Now tell me, each and all if you will, what legisaltion would you personally put forward regarding the United Kingdom today? Assume you have won the election and are about to put a bill into law…what would it say?

    • Martha says:

      Well run hostels for homeless people

      • Alasdair says:

        Yes Martha, very good point. Let’s remove the excuse of “I don’t want to bring a child into a world where — followed by a list of things wrong in the world”. Let’s legislate to enact changes to remove these excuses. And let each law begin and end with “This is part of a raft of laws enacted in order to remove excuses for aborting unborn children”. And let there be cross-references to all the other laws and statutory devices which serve the same purpose.

      • Alasdair says:

        Yes Martha, very good point. Let’s remove the excuse of “I don’t want to bring a child into a world where — followed by a list of things wrong in the world”. Let’s legislate to enact changes to remove these excuses. And let each law begin and end with “This is part of a raft of laws enacted in order to remove excuses for aborting unborn children”. And let there be cross-references to all the other laws and statutory devices which serve the same purpose.

    • Nektarios says:

      Ignatius

      As Tony Blair once commenting on anti- God laws legislation said, ” In Westminster, we don’t do God”. This is why I guess there has been all this time spent divided over Brexit for example.
      On Abortion don’t look for them to do the right thing there either.

      I guess that is why, though I was offered the chance to stand for Parliament turned it down.
      When asked why I replied, I love the truth more.

    • Alasdair says:

      I don’t know. Maybe we’ve just got to the stage where legislation and the State is a pile of crap.
      Watching the current events in Hong Kong makes me feel embarrassed that I’ve never been tear-gassed, beaten and arrested for standing up for what I believe in.
      I probably wouldn’t survive it now, but that would be better than than fading away to some progressive disease (like pro-choice liberalism or simply law-abiding apathy).

  11. ignatius says:

    Yes, thats a good one..I was thinking mainly with regard to abortion but I guess it could be broadened out a bit. I’ve been toying with making voting compulsory but I haven’t quite decided on the issue yet.

    • Martha says:

      That all mothers requesting abortion must be given full information about the development of unborn life and about the procedure including an explicit video of an abortion taking place.
      But this would never be passed.
      Nor would one be passed that forbids the storage and use of ‘spare’ embryos for other health problems.

    • David Smith says:

      Ignatius writes:

      // I’ve been toying with making voting compulsory but I haven’t quite decided on the issue yet. //

      One objection to compulsory voting is that people who won’t vote unless forced to do so are very likely to be ignorant about the issues and to vote for the first position or candidate that catches their attention. Always beware the dangers of unintended consequences.

    • David Smith says:

      Ignatius writes:

      // I’ve been toying with making voting compulsory but I haven’t quite decided on the issue yet. //

      One objection to compulsory voting is that people who won’t vote unless forced to do so are very likely to be ignorant about the issues and to vote for the first position or candidate that catches their attention. Always beware the dangers of unintended consequences.

  12. Iona says:

    Voting compulsory – yes.
    Adequate support for women with pregnancies which they see as “problematic”, including as necessary financial support, housing, social support; I think many women don’t really want to abort but feel constrained to it by their circumstances.
    I wouldn’t go for Martha’s explicit video, though I would go for giving full information about foetal development (if I were going to have any kind of operation I don’t think I’d want to see a video of it beforehand).
    Chipping away gradually at the existing situation; for example, reducing the upper developmental age limit from the present 24 weeks to 20, and at a later date to 18. Abortions for reason of preferred sex to be outlawed immediately. Abortions for minor correctable conditions such as cleft palate or club foot to be outlawed immediately.

  13. Iona says:

    It really looks as though western European countries, north American countries and Australia are trying to commit suicide. In most if not all of them the birthrate is below replacement level, the abortion rate is getting higher by the year, assisted suicide is in place in several countries, and is being constantly agitated for in others.

  14. galerimo says:

    At this time, I think the term “abortion” is inadequate to describe the full extent of the evil to which you refer.

    It is part of a much greater problem and that is what needs to be addressed.

    Too easily and too often abortion is claimed as an issue by the politics of the right both in society and in religion.

    Archbishop Gomez of Los Angeles diocese has been a member of Opus Dei for decades.

    On taking up his role as the new head of the Catholic Bishops Conference in the U.S. he stated that the threat of abortion remains the number one priority for U.S. bishops (November 12, 2019).

    Really?

    The life of entire species is being cut off at its source, aborted and extinguished on a massive scale. Our failure to see this “abortion” in the fullness of its widespread practice is not just poor perspective.

    It is a small minded approach to the problem of our own self-descruction so evident in what we are doing to our entire world.

    Isn’t this what Pope Francis taught in his encyclical Laudato Si – “These problems are closely linked to a throwaway culture which affects the excluded just as it quickly reduces things to rubbish”. (LS.20, 22)

    His plans to include a definition of ecological sins in the church’s official teaching is a good example of how we need to look at this problem of extinction – the violent extinguishing of life, in a much broader and truer context.

    Headlines (CNBC) like “Impeachment, abortion, Obamacare: ‘Ticking time bombs’ one year before Election Day 2020”, clearly show how the full extent of this evil gets reduced to an item on an election list to appeal to voters.

    It is not just human life but all life that is under threat by our commodity view in this consumer world that does not give a damn about the cost, personal, social or religious.

    Abortion is only part of the problem and focusing on it to the exclusion of all life under threat in our time is a narrow contradictory view taking people in the wrong direction.

    • David Smith says:

      galerimo writes:

      // Abortion is only part of the problem and focusing on it to the exclusion of all life under threat in our time is a narrow contradictory view taking people in the wrong direction. //

      I’m speechless. You really believe that, I suppose. Well, sure, so, evidently, does the Pope. We’re living in strange times.

  15. Nektarios says:

    galerimo

    You are quite right of course in many respects when we look at the various aspects in the broader context.
    It also needs to be said there is nothing new in any of this and as far as Abortion is concerned it is a blot on humanity.
    The answer to Man’s problems is not Mans answer to them, but God’s answer for that is what matters not only now and for our happiness and wellbeing but also for our eternal destiny.

    Churches are not living up to their calling in Christ, nor our privileges and obligations.
    Do not think that the religious structures that have been built up over centuries have the answers. if they did, they would be able to demonstrate it, but we are in a world that has mainly rejected God’s plan and solutions for the salvation of mankind, the results of which can only get worse.

    We as Christians make sure we are not trapped by the snares and wiles of the devil. in these days but be very discerning what the will of God is for us or individually is. Time is short!

  16. John Nolan says:

    Historically and constitutionally the exercise of the franchise is a privilege. it is not a right, still less a duty, and in no circumstances can it be seen as an obligation whose non-compliance should incur a criminal penalty.

    Voting is exercising a choice. The day the State tries to compel me to make a choice is the day that I cease to hold any allegiance to it. I would certainly never vote again.

  17. Iona says:

    I always vote, because of the suffragettes. On occasion I have handed in a blank ballot paper, when I really don’t feel any of the candidates can possibly represent me. Handing in a blank paper indicates that yes, I can be bothered to make the trip to the polling station.

  18. Hock says:

    Is abortion so mundane a topic on a Christian web site that almost half the replies are about whether to vote or not.

    • David Smith says:

      Hock writes:

      // Is abortion so mundane a topic on a Christian web site that almost half the replies are about whether to vote or not. //

      Humans are herd animals. If almost all the loudest members of the herd are saying – loudly – that grass is poisonous, the herd will starve. Abortion has been normalized in the West. In fact, it’s become a political right, which no one dares to repudiate. Speak against it, point out that it is in fact murder, and you’re very likely to be thought daffy and to be shunned. Members of the church are also members of the herd, and if the church leaders are not unanimous and persistent in speaking out against abortion – and they are not – then the herd instinct will ensure that many or most members of the church will believe abortion is either a good thing or, at the very least, far from as serious matter as a minority of their daffy co-religionists say it is.

    • Alasdair says:

      Yes, I was also surprised by the lack of ire directed at the topic of abortion.
      Maybe it’s because you’re mostly Catholics and it’s now the Evangelical churches that are out there and making the running on this issue?

    • Martha says:

      Hock, I sometimes think that the word abortion itself contributes to this attitude, it is rather technical and masks the reality of the action taking place, we hear it so constantly and the danger is that it can become like water off a duck’s back.

      • David Smith says:

        Martha, French snowflakes find “avortement” too blunt, perhaps too unpleasant. They prefer, instead, “interruption volontaire de grossesse”. It’s interesting that in the Anglosphere proponents of a universal right to abortion have not yet, to my knowledge, come up with a euphemism of their own. Apparently they more or less agree with you that “abortion” is sufficiently inoffensive.

  19. Nektarios says:

    Scripture tells us that Jesus our Lord said, “my sheep hear my voice and follow me, the voice of another they will not follow. So on this matter of Abortion, whose voice are we listening too and following? Are we sure whose sheep are we? Choose who you will serve!

    • Alasdair says:

      I choose to follow Him – and His direction is clear at this obvious parting of the ways.
      You cannot serve two masters.

      • Nektarios says:

        Alasdair
        Quite so.

        The Abortion Bill was never intended to Abortion on demand. I warned the then David Steele MP where it would lead to – I was right!

        But that is nothing in comparison to the Abortion death cult that is propagated by various groups today, even into minors in schools under the guise of education which is more like indoctrination and abuse of children. Adults, I don’t believe realise all the implications, they too have been indoctrinated into the Globalist death cult agenda.

        Good will prevail but not without an information battle.

  20. ignatius says:

    Alisdair writes:
    “Yes, I was also surprised by the lack of ire directed at the topic of abortion.
    Maybe it’s because you’re mostly Catholics and it’s now the Evangelical churches that are out there and making the running on this issue?..”

    Well, now you ask, no. I personally find the game where a bunch of chaps vent their ritualistic and splenetic online fury at ‘abortion’.. to be rather a pathetic one. It is rather like dragging out some old dog to beat yet again simply for the pleasure of it and because it makes us feel better. For a variety of reasons several of my good friends have resorted to abortion for medical or social reasons. I do not think they are ritual satanists or signed up to a death cult agenda. So, since no one wishes to have any discussion at the human level, preferring instead to blather self righteously at full volume, I personally prefer a more restrained approach and would be much more impressed if any were able to tell us of their active involvement in alternative provision, but so far none of that has come.

    • David Smith says:

      ignatius writes:

      // I personally find the game where a bunch of chaps vent their ritualistic and splenetic online fury at ‘abortion’.. to be rather a pathetic one. //

      Ad hominem, no? What about the position itself, apart from the advocates you find unattractive?

      • ignatius says:

        No, not ad hominem. I was merely answering Alisdair’s question about lack of ‘displayed ire’ and trying to explain why I find that particular form of ‘display’ distasteful and unpleasant. The Catholic church already has a pretty clear stance on the subject does it not?

    • Alasdair says:

      Yes I did use the word ire. I don’t think that went as far as to invoke “ritualistic, splenetic old dog beating”.
      Restrained approaches are admirable, but being invisible and inaudible, they are ineffective. Without passion no-one will believe we hold a position on anything.

      • ignatius says:

        Sorry, Alisdair, I couldn’t agree less. Passion is like steam…clouds of it about the place look interesting but avail nothing. Contain the steam in a boiler, direct its pressure you will get action..How much money have you sent to anti abortion lobbies? How many letter have any of us written to the newspapers? How many groups have any of us joined to lobby our MP or to stand outside abortion clinics? Tell of these things or else go and do something else.

    • Martha says:

      Ignatius, I became active in our local Life group soon after our daughter was born safely over 40 years ago when I was nearing my mid forties. This was specifically in gratitude,and to help other mothers in very difficult circumstances. We offered counselling and support and also ran a house kindly lent to us by a generous supporter where mothers could live before and after a birth and have company and support. We support Life financially now, and try to speak positively and be empathetic when the subject arises.

      I have just tried to write an understanding and helpful comment to an article in today’s press about ‘Desperate women in Kenya denied abortions and resorting to Coca Cola,’ but it has not been published. Here it is and you might be able to suggest an improvement.

      “They must be very desperate, and in heart breaking situations, but ending human life before birth is not the answer to social problems, any more than killing babies after birth. A far better way to help, is to educate men and women to have sex responsibly by avoiding the few fertile days, and nights, in the menstrual cycle.”

      I agree that strident condemnation is wrong and unchristian and think it does more harm than good, especially when it is directed towards those who are personally involved. In more academic discussions it is necessary to be more forthright.

  21. ignatius says:

    David,
    I’m a Catholic… read the catechism on the subject and you will find out.

  22. Alasdair says:

    Ignatius said (Nov 26) “Sorry, Alasdair, I couldn’t agree less. Passion is like steam…clouds of it about the place look interesting but avail nothing. Contain the steam in a boiler, direct its pressure you will get action”
    Dear Ignatius, I fully understand Thermodynamics. The boiler is indeed connected to the cylinders and the flanges and gaskets tightened to the correct torque, and the gauge is showing operating pressure. In answer to your “How many’s —“. The answer is ALL OF THE ABOVE.
    I remember a successful selection board many years ago. Only a single vacancy was being applied for. In the chairman’s feedback to the unsuccessful candidates, he said that the successful candidate (me!) was the only one who had shown any passion.

  23. Martha says:

    Yesterday I attempted to reply to Ignatius’ post of Nov 25th 5.28 pm and then saw later that it was awaiting moderation. I have tried!

    • David Smith says:

      Martha writes:

      // Yesterday I attempted to reply to Ignatius’ post of Nov 25th 5.28 pm and then saw later that it was awaiting moderation. I have tried! //

      Martha, that’s the Internet. I suppose it’s almost miraculous that it works as well as it does, since there are an uncountable number of physical and electronic gates through which everything anyone writes must pass before, hopefully, it arrives under some else’s eyes.

      Come to think of it, letters written with ink on paper were very contingent, too. When the envelope left our hands, it had to pass through countless other hands before, hopefully, it arrived, dry and still legible, at its intended destination.

      In a sense, all life is that way. We send out our intentions, and the universe disposes of them as it will. Reality is fragile. We live constantly in hopes that our expectations will not be disappointed.

      Connecting this to the subject at hand, we can expect that most people are good at heart and must sooner or later wake to the realization that abortion is cold blooded murder and not simply an easy and harmless way to remove an obstacle to their daily pleasures, as our worldly leaders of the moment assure us it is, but we can never know if that’s true.

      • Martha says:

        Thank you David. It was posted after that, further back as a reply to Ignatius’ request.
        Making comments seems to be easier from the phone, but they can’t be pasted. swings and roundabouts.. I am certainly in awe of the magic of the internet, after growing up with our father away in Burma during WW2, when the only communication was air mail letters which took time to arrive, no phone calls at all or getting home of course. My husband and I didn’t even have a landline phone until 1969 after our fourth son was born.

  24. John Nolan says:

    ‘The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.’

    Whenever I see a mob holding up placards and chanting slogans (What do we want? Free beer! When do we want it? Now!) I know that even artificially-generated passion has replaced rational argument and persuasion.

    • Alasdair says:

      David said (Nov 26) “People must sooner or later wake to the realization that abortion is cold blooded murder and not simply an easy and harmless way to remove an obstacle to their daily pleasures, as our worldly leaders of the moment assure us it is”.
      This is precisely how Satan works. He starts with making us doubt God’s word, as in “Did God really say that —-” Gen 3:2. Then he encourages us to be the masters of our own destiny, freed from the shackles of God’s pettiness: “your eyes will be opened and you will be like God” Gen 3:5 (New Living Translation). The final evil comes when doing what God specifically forbids is presented as virtuous, good and loving – as in the National Women’s Law Center’s statement: “what is abortion actually? An act of love. An act of compassion. An act of healing. An act of selflessness”.
      This is precisely how Satan works. He starts with making us doubt God’s word, as in “Did God really say that —-” Gen 3:2. Then he encourages us to be the masters of our own destiny, freed from the shackles of God’s pettiness: “your eyes will be opened and you will be like God” Gen 3:5 (New Living Translation). The final evil comes when doing what God specifically forbids is presented as virtuous, good and loving – as in the National Women’s Law Center’s statement: “what is abortion actually? An act of love. An act of compassion. An act of healing. An act of selflessness”.

    • Alasdair says:

      Rational argument is a waste of time on its own if persuasion is what is desired. There is no conduit between rational argument and the masses we wish to persuade.
      The equation is more likely Passion + Rational Argument = Persuasion

    • Alasdair says:

      My understanding of the word “passion” seems to be different from some of your’s. I didn’t suggest mob-like behaviour let alone abusing dogs.
      Presumably some of you “Love God with all your mind” but stop short of loving him with your heart and soul, lest you be accused of displaying passion.

      • ignatius says:

        Hi Alisdair… There is a difference between feeling passion and displaying i. I should add that everyone is different and what pleases some doesn’t please others. This whole line of discussion began because of the comment you made on Nov 25th at 10.00am..

        For myself passion relates to action not words… I remember just after Tiannmen square, seeing the photo of the guy in front of the tank. Something in it touched my heart and i walked the few yards back home from the newsagent at the top of my street, weeping. 4 months or so later I was on a plane to China with a missions organisation where I spent the next 5 years smuggling bibles, setting up an orphanage project and evangelising.

        Don’t make the mistake, Alisdair, of thinking that Catholics have cold hearts towards God just because they don’t like a fuss. Remember Alisdair that the whole history of the Church up to the reformation was chiefly a catholic story – often one of utter commitment, great self sacrifice personal heroism, even unto death.

      • Alasdair says:

        Ignatius,
        perhaps we have misunderstood each other. The passion-driven actions you describe are what I say christians should be doing. That’s exactly what I meant, so well done you!
        With respect, this line of discussion started with Hock’s comment on Nov 24.

  25. Alasdair says:

    David said (Nov 26) “People must sooner or later wake to the realization that abortion is cold blooded murder and not simply an easy and harmless way to remove an obstacle to their daily pleasures, as our worldly leaders of the moment assure us it is”.
    This is precisely how Satan works. He starts with making us doubt God’s word, as in “Did God really say that —-” Gen 3:2. Then he encourages us to be the masters of our own destiny, freed from the shackles of God’s pettiness: “your eyes will be opened and you will be like God” Gen 3:5 (New Living Translation). The final evil comes when doing what God specifically forbids is presented as virtuous, good and loving – as in the National Women’s Law Center’s statement: “what is abortion actually? An act of love. An act of compassion. An act of healing. An act of selflessness”.

  26. Alasdair says:

    apologies for duplicated post above. Please retain the 9:56am one

  27. galerimo says:

    Eric Idle presents his idea on the remote likelihood of life in his Monty Python “Galaxy song”.

    His view is based on the vastness of the universe but a close look at the early stages of human life on earth and it’s chances must also lead to an accusing finger pointing to Mother Nature herself.

    There is nothing like neonatal death to challenge your faith in God.

    And, to the best of my knowledge the rate of it occurring has not greatly decreased even in our medically advanced times.

    The rampant and profligate waste of male sperm and female ova, the amount of perfectly good human tissue in its embryonic state that gets flushed down the toilet, spontaneous abortion, early pregnancy loss and even when human life has taken hold, the terrible tragedy of, as yet unexplained, sudden infant death can make it all look like a lottery.

    And a lottery that, apart from the evil of clinical human abortion, to use a contradictory term, makes the gift of life mostly, very unlikely.

    So to continue believing in God, the Giver of Life, I have to maintain there is no way God can be understood bound by the same terms of the morality that God expects from us.

    Life in its origins, and in its needs for support and nourishing, just isn’t fair.

    And looking at all the fruit that falls to the ground, already in a state of decay even the sacred web of life, of which we form only one small part – extinguishment seems to be more the rule.

    Well may Eric exhort us all to “pray there is intelligent life, somewhere up in space”

    Because, as he sings “there is bugger all, down here on earth”.

  28. Iona says:

    For what it’s worth, I have – like Martha – been a long-term supporter of Life; also of the parliamentary organisation Right To Life; and have also contacted MPs on the subject of abortion.
    And Galerimo: God sees things from both sides, His own, and ours. We see only from one side. “Still, He knows what He is about” as St. John Henry says.

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