Church of England v. Church of Rome

My message today is brief because I’ve cheated. I want to refer you to a splendid, brief, description of the pillaging and plundering of the English monasteries. (https://www.crisismagazine.com/2022/the-pillaging-and-plundering-of-the-english-monasteries)
Of course we all have the general story but perhaps you will find (as I did) this is an excellent account. It is quite clear that the Reformation was not related to doctrine but strongly about power. I have to say that I am glad not to be a member of the Church of England. But then, of course, I have to accept that the Church of Rome had, and has, elements we might like to change. What do you think?

About Quentin

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15 Responses to Church of England v. Church of Rome

  1. John Candido says:

    The sacking of monasteries by the nobility with the imprimatur of various monarchs was a greedy and immoral act that gravely affected thousands of monks and nuns.

    The direct outcome of these thefts made the lives of any person dependent on the assistance of any monastery a misery.

    • milliganp says:

      During a visit to the English Marian shrine at Walsingham we were offered a historical tour of the shrine area. Our guide, an Anglican, told us the abolition of the monasteries led to the loss of their work with the sick and the poor – eventually culminating in Victorian Poor Laws which destroyed any sense of dignity for the poor. The term “cold as charity” aught to be an oxymoron.

  2. John Thomas says:

    Henry was, as is so often said, motivated by greed, (while being theologically very Catholic) and certainly his “noble” supporters were – but I’m wondering if this was the first time a king/nobleman had robbed the Church of its material assets in order the feed his desire for power/wealth? My guess is that though Henry’s actions are the best-known, and maybe the most extreme, they were not the first; my guess is that it happened long before any talk of “Reformation” came.
    And we are often asked to imagine what would have happened, or not happened, if Prince Arthur had lived, or if Catherine of Aragon had produced a male heir … no Elizabethan Settlement (ie no C of E), and then when the REAL Reformers started pouring in from Europe (late16th/early 17th cents.), there might have been a real Reformation, and England would have become a Calvinist nation …

    I also am coming to wish I was not in the C of E – but probably not for the reasons Quentin has in mind … And things aren’t all that good in the R C C, if the US “conservative” Catholic newsletter Life Site News, which I am emailed regularly, is to be believed.

  3. galerimo says:

    What a great excursion into England’s history. I enjoyed it very much. Thank you!

    I think anyone , friend or foe, who brings our Church into poverty is doing us a great service.
    Our default financial position as Catholic Church should always be broke.

    So I have no doubt that Henry will have a higher place in heaven at least for that reason.
    Sad to say we have as much blood on our hands for forcing others into conformity as any other Church.

    Isn’t there a danger that “glad not to be a member of the Church of England”
    could risk echoing much of the pharisee’s prayer in the temple!

    After all, only God can judge the faith of anyone, no matter how they appear to practice it.

    I’m inclined to keep a deep respect for all our fellow believers and nonbelievers, in hope that we may be found worthy to enter the Kingdom of God in company with all of them, someday –

    rejoicing in God’s goodness and freedom – where, I have no doubt many surprises await all of us, about the first and the least.

    Seems like our Christian Charismatic Sisters and Brothers are taking the place by storm.
    Now numbering in excess of 305 million and at the rate of 30,000 new members every day, worldwide, on track to reach one billion by 2050!

    And not much reported in terms of anyone being hung, drawn and quartered in the process.

    It is a joy to know how many lives are “coming to the Lord,” in this way- even if I don’t have the honour of meeting any of them in my local, two dozen strong, parish church congregation.

    In truth, much reform was needed in our very corrupt, indulgence-selling church at the time of Henry’s ravaging. But, much benefit has been gained since.

    With an ongoing improvements in the papacy, biblical knowledge and richer liturgical celebration of the Word of God, as well as our witnessing the respect given to women in their exercise of excellent Church leadership.

    My feelings of pride in Robert Aske grow greater with a firm belief in his satisfaction at knowing
    How much benefit continues to be gained in this messy business of religion through the on-going pilgrimage of grace that is his legacy.

  4. John Nolan says:

    Kings of England before Henry VIII tried (with limited success) to prevent land being given to the Church; for example Edward I’s Statutes of Mortmain (1279 and 1290). Grants of land to individuals were subject to feudal dues whereas grants of land to corporations, including monasteries, were not. However, Henry VIII’s wholesale appropriation of monastic property was unprecedented.

    There was, of course, widespread dissolution of European monasteries in the wake of the Enlightenment and the French Revolution, notably in Austria and Bavaria, with similar economic and social disruption. Ironically, the anti-clericalism of the French Third Republic actually revived monasticism in England in the early 20th century as displaced congregations were relocated here.

    • John Thomas says:

      John, this final point of yours is often missed, and there were many fruits. Is not the existence of the writings of Julian of Norwich due to the fact of the owners of her MS having to quit northern France and come to England, following French anti-clericalism? And I just LOVE Quarr Abbey, I o Wight.

  5. Hock says:

    I read that Ampleforth has failed its latest Ofsted inspection. As the college and Monastery are intrinsically linked I wonder if this means the whole place is subject to Special Measures. The Ofsted Inspectors discovered several alarming factors that led to their conclusions, some of them very similar to what Henry used/claimed to have discovered, to justify their dissolution.
    Some might be very pleased to see the end of places such as Ampleforth which are more about wealth and privilege than being some kind of welfare centre for needy Catholics.

  6. David Smith says:

    Quentin writes ( https://secondsightblog.net/2022/04/01/church-of-england-v-church-of-rome/ ) :

    // My message today is brief because I’ve cheated. I want to refer you to a splendid, brief, description of the pillaging and plundering of the English monasteries.

    (https://www.crisismagazine.com/2022/the-pillaging-and-plundering-of-the-english-monasteries) //

    Thank you, Quentin. History is an indispensable teacher for those who desire to understand where and how humanity has evolved and what we are. Without a decent understanding of history, we are, I think, very likely to fall deeply into the sins of pride and greed. In fact, I suspect that much of the insanity regnant throughout today’s world is due to a deliberate failure in our cultures to supply their young with an honest and thorough grounding in history.

    May the people of Ukraine be protected from the pernicious wiles of the world’s amoral, self-aggrandizing leaders, as the people of the Pilgrimage of Grace were not.

  7. David Smith says:

    Hock writes ( https://secondsightblog.net/2022/04/01/church-of-england-v-church-of-rome/#comment-65731 ) :

    // I read that Ampleforth has failed its latest Ofsted inspection. //

    There’s a large story there that we can never learn from the secular media – or even from, I suspect, much of the Catholic media. I hope the Herald will at least make a good start at providing it.

  8. Alasdair says:

    Sorry this is a little off the topic.
    On Palm Sunday my wife decided to attend Mass at the nearest “Catholic” church to where we are staying in Rotterdam. This turned out to be a member of the Old Catholic Church of the Netherlands. She said it reminded her of Catholic Mass when she was a child.

    • Quentin says:

      Well, it is a little off from the discussion. However I also value the feelings of contributors — which I can relate to my own.

      • milliganp says:

        It’s not entirely “off topic”, the Old Catholic church broke away from Rome after rejecting the First Vatican Council; their Apostolic succesion is (I believe) recognised.
        In debates about the validity of orders of Bishops of the Church of England, the presence of Old Catholic bishops at episcopal ordinations are deemed to possibly offer validity.

  9. David Smith says:

    Alasdair writes ( https://secondsightblog.net/2022/04/01/church-of-england-v-church-of-rome/#comment-65780 ) :

    // On Palm Sunday my wife decided to attend Mass at the nearest “Catholic” church to where we are staying in Rotterdam. This turned out to be a member of the Old Catholic Church of the Netherlands. She said it reminded her of Catholic Mass when she was a child. //

    Lovely. Thank you.

    My wife, who attends a progressive Catholic church attached to a Jesuit university, yesterday left four palm leaves on the dining room table where I breakfast. I found them early this morning. Pleasant memories.

  10. David Smith says:

    Quentin writes ( https://secondsightblog.net/2022/04/01/church-of-england-v-church-of-rome/ ) :

    // I am glad not to be a member of the Church of England. But then, of course, I have to accept that the Church of Rome had, and has, elements we might like to change. What do you think? //

    Much damage is likely to be done to good people, fine objects, and solid institutions by those determined to reform now, at all costs.

  11. David Smith says:

    Quentin writes ( https://secondsightblog.net/2022/04/01/church-of-england-v-church-of-rome/ ) :

    // I am glad not to be a member of the Church of England. But then, of course, I have to accept that the Church of Rome had, and has, elements we might like to change. What do you think? //

    It might be nice if the institutional Church were to stop kowtowing to “science” and return to centering on the transcendental. Hubris vitiates. Humility saves.

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